Obama vs McCain

[Punk]

Just curious.

[chief]

obama ftw, even though I don't pay attention too either!

[Yegg]

If I decide to go and vote, Obama is my choice.

[DooMeD]

I don't like either one of them period. But because of the way I was raised, I would vote McCain over Obama any day.

[BaDaSs]

Agreed. Funny how 80% of the people who want to vote for Obama say its cause of McCain. Believing in mass propaganda is hilarious... Really shows mindlessness. Also, I can understand why a lot of poor lazy illegal aliens wanting to vote for Obama, that's truly not stupidity

[DooMeD]

I'm not an illegal alien  I'm canadian/american And I don't support democrats.

[DeCi]

Agreed. Funny how 80% of the people who want to vote for Obama say its cause of McCain. Believing in mass propaganda is hilarious... Really shows mindlessness. Also, I can understand why a lot of poor lazy illegal aliens wanting to vote for Obama, that's truly not stupidity

If you research their ideals for plans, the "Because of McCain" Reason is valid. Such as mccains plain to provide parents with $2,000 to aid with paid highschools (if your parents choose to send you that route ) When in my area, schools that are even worth paying for go from 7,000 - 12,000 a month, and you only get that 2,000 for your whole family, not for each kid, so that is just a idiotic plan.

Not to mention the fact that McCain has indeed shared many of the same ideals as bush, and did vote with him 90% makes him even more unfavorable. Most of bushes decisions got us in this mess.


If you care to ask for more, I'd gladly research it to disprove your "propaganda" argument. The only honest, trustworthy canidate was ron paul, but now it's simply McCain or Obama, so if you hate McCains plans, ideals, and ambitions, stating your reason for voting for obama "because of McCain" Is definitely a valid reason.

[K i n g o f K i n g s]

GO OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!

[WheatThins]

Obama is good but he is getting out of control with our tax money going to, to many banks and other businesses (but this is my opinion) i would like him to maybe give some of the tax money back to the people instead of going to businesses all the time besides When we get out tax returns back (if you get money back) and if you have to pay the IRS i feel sorry for you   

[K i n g o f K i n g s]

Obama is good but he is getting out of control with our tax money going to, to many banks and other businesses (but this is my opinion) i would like him to maybe give some of the tax money back to the people instead of going to businesses all the time besides When we get out tax returns back (if you get money back) and if you have to pay the IRS i feel sorry for you   

Your a republican i assume?
I am a democrat i personally realize taxes should be higher in a reccision so that the government can fix this.

[Drug]

Obama is good but he is getting out of control with our tax money going to, to many banks and other businesses (but this is my opinion) i would like him to maybe give some of the tax money back to the people instead of going to businesses all the time besides When we get out tax returns back (if you get money back) and if you have to pay the IRS i feel sorry for you   

Your a republican i assume?
I am a democrat i personally realize taxes should be higher in a reccision so that the government can fix this.

To a certain extent. You explain to me how our countries planning on getting out of the serious debt we've accumulated over the past eight years by borrowing trillions more dollars. Let me guess your answer: "It will jump start the economy!". I think not.

[Sypher]

Obama is good but he is getting out of control with our tax money going to, to many banks and other businesses (but this is my opinion) i would like him to maybe give some of the tax money back to the people instead of going to businesses all the time besides When we get out tax returns back (if you get money back) and if you have to pay the IRS i feel sorry for you   

Your a republican i assume?
I am a democrat i personally realize taxes should be higher in a reccision so that the government can fix this.

Is that last line a joke? Do you honestly believe that higher taxes during a recession is optimal? You really are a Democrat. People make less during recessions, and inflation is already low. Why risk raising taxes and causing deadweight loss and deflation?

[K i n g o f K i n g s]

Obama is good but he is getting out of control with our tax money going to, to many banks and other businesses (but this is my opinion) i would like him to maybe give some of the tax money back to the people instead of going to businesses all the time besides When we get out tax returns back (if you get money back) and if you have to pay the IRS i feel sorry for you   

Your a republican i assume?
I am a democrat i personally realize taxes should be higher in a reccision so that the government can fix this.

Is that last line a joke? Do you honestly believe that higher taxes during a recession is optimal? You really are a Democrat. People make less during recessions, and inflation is already low. Why risk raising taxes and causing deadweight loss and deflation?

Let me clarify Tax the rich

[Sypher]

Obama is good but he is getting out of control with our tax money going to, to many banks and other businesses (but this is my opinion) i would like him to maybe give some of the tax money back to the people instead of going to businesses all the time besides When we get out tax returns back (if you get money back) and if you have to pay the IRS i feel sorry for you   

Your a republican i assume?
I am a democrat i personally realize taxes should be higher in a reccision so that the government can fix this.

Is that last line a joke? Do you honestly believe that higher taxes during a recession is optimal? You really are a Democrat. People make less during recessions, and inflation is already low. Why risk raising taxes and causing deadweight loss and deflation?

Let me clarify Tax the rich

Even worse. Why tax the people who help the economy grow more than all of the other income quintiles combined? If you tax the rich, then you stifle investment. If you stifle investment, then you block growth. If you block growth, then you are ensuring that the recession won't end for many years.

[pikachu]

Redistribution of wealth.  When you reach a certain comfort level, you can afford to pay a little bit more.

[Sypher]

You may be able to afford it, but it has serious consequences. Deadweight loss does vicious damage to the supply curve, and can actually cause a loss of tax revenue. Dr. Arthur Laffer proved this to perfection with the Laffer Curve. There's a reason why over 45 countries have LOWERED their highest marginal tax rates, and their GDPs exploded, especially in Eastern Europe after years of a 100% income tax.

[pikachu]

Sypher, you need to learn the difference between theory and practice.  In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.

Socialism is much more complicated of a cultural structure than a "100% income tax" as you put it.  It's ludicrous to compare our economy and society with that of Eastern Europe.  Despite the fundamental differences in mentality and values, their populations aren't even close to ours.  The only country that has a flat tax rate that is more than 15% of our population is Russia--most are between 1% and 5%.  Yes, you are correct.  Their GDPs have exploded.  However, in Russia's case it's attributed to not to the flat tax, but rather foreign investment, increased consumption and political stability.  That's like saying "dude, Communism totally works because 400 people can live in harmony somewhere in bumfuck nowhere.  we should adopt communism to a nation with hundreds of millions of people."

This ties back into the other thread.  Spending inside of your economy builds your economy.  ESPECIALLY when you have a significant population.  Like America.  Like Russia.  See? Practice vs theory.  Practice always wins.  If you want to go turn Hawaii into a country with a flat tax rate it would probably work.  Otherwise, you're not convincing anybody.

[Sypher]

I never thought I'd see the day when a socialist brings up theory vs. practice to a capitalist. Pianka, please answer my question from before: WHEN has dramatic spending worked in America?

Ukraine's flat tax has worked, and they have 46,000,000 people. It works in Russia (there has been more DOMESTIC investment than foreign investment since the flat tax was enacted, so there goes that theory, and they've virtually solved the problem of tax evasion) http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/941 If you've ever been to Russia, you'd be able to see the difference. I lived in Russia for most of my life, and I've witnessed the changes firsthand. The people in my city of Volgograd were very poor and we had a very high unemployment rate for many years. Just a few years after the flat tax was enacted and the corporate tax rate was cut, the double digit unemployment rate shrunk to under 5% and businesses started hiring almost immediately after 10 years of consistently shutting down. Job increases are the main area that see growth. While there isn't a significant increase in income, there is a significant increase in jobs, which are much more important!

Progressive taxation always leaves the government with more power than it should have, and it leaves room for extreme bureaucracy. Just look the United States. Our tax code is absolutely horrible. Presidents can raise and lower the tax brackets almost at will. Why should they be allowed to receive more money as the citizens get sucked dry? It's too late to reform the U.S. tax code, but why should we force our shitty tax code on other countries?

[Crux]

Guys, this debate should of been over a little while ago. Obama is in, McCain is not. End of Story.

[pikachu]

That's not really the end of the story.  The debate at this point is over economic policy and Sypher trying to prove he knows everything about economics.

edit: my quick response as I don't feel like writing a lot again.  I'm not saying you're wrong sypher.  I'm sure you guys over in Russia had an amazing time with the flat tax.  However, it still doesn't apply to us.  The countries with the highest GDPs in the world don't have a flat tax.  Russia has 50% our population and 1/8 our GDP.  Ukraine has 15% our population and 1/80 our GDP.  It comes back to practice vs theory.

On another note, I assume you're calling me a socialist.  The problem with the way you think is that it's in terms of purity and absolutes.  You have one answer to solve the entire world's problems.  I'm a socialist and you're a capitalist.  In reality, that's not how things work.  In fact, it's irresponsible to assume they can work that way.  I'm not a socialist.  I recognize that there are certain socialized programs.

Think about this: "oh my god, obama wants to have government controlled health care. hes a socialist!"  How many times have we all heard this? I'm sure we've never ever had a socialized program in the purely capitalist United States, right?  It's a good thing our police are in the private sector.  Same with our fire fighters.  Don't forget about our postal system.  Wait, what about our libraries?  Definitely not our education.

[Sypher]

Guys, this debate should of been over a little while ago. Obama is in, McCain is not. End of Story.

This has nothing to do with John McCain. I didn't vote for him.

[Sypher]

That's not really the end of the story.  The debate at this point is over economic policy and Sypher trying to prove he knows everything about economics.

edit: my quick response as I don't feel like writing a lot again.  I'm not saying you're wrong sypher.  I'm sure you guys over in Russia had an amazing time with the flat tax.  However, it still doesn't apply to us.  The countries with the highest GDPs in the world don't have a flat tax.  Russia has 50% our population and 1/8 our GDP.  Ukraine has 15% our population and 1/80 our GDP.  It comes back to practice vs theory.

On another note, I assume you're calling me a socialist.  The problem with the way you think is that it's in terms of purity and absolutes.  You have one answer to solve the entire world's problems.  I'm a socialist and you're a capitalist.  In reality, that's not how things work.  In fact, it's irresponsible to assume they can work that way.  I'm not a socialist.  I recognize that there are certain socialized programs.

Think about this: "oh my god, obama wants to have government controlled health care. hes a socialist!"  How many times have we all heard this? I'm sure we've never ever had a socialized program in the purely capitalist United States, right?  It's a good thing our police are in the private sector.  Same with our fire fighters.  Don't forget about our postal system.  Wait, what about our libraries?  Definitely not our education.

Well, Pianka, I recognize that we could not reform our tax code and make it a flat tax. I'm not naive. If I were actually advocating changing our entire tax code in 2009, then I could safely be called retarded. People have modeled their investments around our tax system for a hundred years.

As for socialized programs like police, fire, and emergency care, even the most hardcore laissez-faire capitalist agrees that they face extreme adverse selection and therefore the state has to control it. I'm not so sure that health care has to be this way, because it undergoes adverse selection even under state control. I have no doubt that we need to make it cheaper, but I disagree with Democrats and Republicans on the way to do it.

[pikachu]

Hahaha.  What would be your health care plan?

[Sypher]

Hahaha.  What would be your health care plan?

1/3 (6% of GDP) of our health care system is pure waste. This waste exists almost entirely in Medicare and Medicaid. That's the aspect that needs to be reformed.

The government should give vouchers to people using Medicare and allow them to choose their own insurance program, and let them keep whatever money they save if they choose a cheaper program. We could also give people who don't receive employer based health care tax deductions so they can afford the same coverage. Finally, we should relax some of the pervasive regulations that forbid doctors from practicing across state lines. In Massachusetts (we have 100% socialized health care), we've had real problems with cost control, even more than the rest of the country. Our neighbors in New Hampshire and Connecticut pay much less for health care and services than we do, but they are forbidden to practice on our residents.  If there are cheaper health care options, then why not allow people to choose those options regardless of where they're located? This alone would increase the amount of insured. I'd personally like to see a 40/60 ratio of government control to free market control, but I recognize that there has to be some government control in health care or else the adverse selection will be too intense.

My plan isn't perfect, but it's better than what Republicans are offering. They want to give $10,000 tax refunds to anyone who buys their own insurance... And I know from experience both in America and in Russia that the Democratic plan is not viable for us.

[K i n g o f K i n g s]

Guys, this debate should of been over a little while ago. Obama is in, McCain is not. End of Story.

This has nothing to do with John McCain. I didn't vote for him.

That's not really the end of the story.  The debate at this point is over economic policy and Sypher trying to prove he knows everything about economics.

edit: my quick response as I don't feel like writing a lot again.  I'm not saying you're wrong sypher.  I'm sure you guys over in Russia had an amazing time with the flat tax.  However, it still doesn't apply to us.  The countries with the highest GDPs in the world don't have a flat tax.  Russia has 50% our population and 1/8 our GDP.  Ukraine has 15% our population and 1/80 our GDP.  It comes back to practice vs theory.

On another note, I assume you're calling me a socialist.  The problem with the way you think is that it's in terms of purity and absolutes.  You have one answer to solve the entire world's problems.  I'm a socialist and you're a capitalist.  In reality, that's not how things work.  In fact, it's irresponsible to assume they can work that way.  I'm not a socialist.  I recognize that there are certain socialized programs.

Think about this: "oh my god, obama wants to have government controlled health care. hes a socialist!"  How many times have we all heard this? I'm sure we've never ever had a socialized program in the purely capitalist United States, right?  It's a good thing our police are in the private sector.  Same with our fire fighters.  Don't forget about our postal system.  Wait, what about our libraries?  Definitely not our education.

Well, Pianka, I recognize that we could not reform our tax code and make it a flat tax. I'm not naive. If I were actually advocating changing our entire tax code in 2009, then I could safely be called retarded. People have modeled their investments around our tax system for a hundred years.

As for socialized programs like police, fire, and emergency care, even the most hardcore laissez-faire capitalist agrees that they face extreme adverse selection and therefore the state has to control it. I'm not so sure that health care has to be this way, because it undergoes adverse selection even under state control. I have no doubt that we need to make it cheaper, but I disagree with Democrats and Republicans on the way to do it.

Nice double post for one thing... However I think Obama's idea on how to do healthcare is good with flaws. He needs to make it worth while for doctors to keep working as doctors.