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General => Round Table => Topic started by: Nico on April 18, 2011, 05:47:51 pm

Title: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Nico on April 18, 2011, 05:47:51 pm
Quote
Woah! In the world of big-time lawsuits, this must be just about the biggest. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Apple has sued Samsung Electronics for copying "the look and feel" of its iPad tablet and iPhone smartphone. This relates to the Samsung Galaxy S 4G, which bears more than a passing resemblance to the iPhone 3G / 3GS models, and the slightly less obvious Epic 4G, Nexus S, and Galaxy Tab (presumably the older 7-inch model, since the newer ones aren't out yet) devices. The claim for intellectual property infringement is phrased as follows:

    "Rather than innovate and develop its own technology and a unique Samsung style for its smart phone products and computer tablets, Samsung chose to copy Apple's technology, user interface and innovative style in these infringing products."

The lawsuit was filed in the Northern District of California on Friday and seeks injunctions against Samsung, damages (both actual and punitive), and a finding that the infringement was willful. Lest we forget, the rarest outcome in such legal tussles is for an actual judgment to actually be handed down, so the greatest likelihood is that this will just lead to another round of grudging handshakes and licensing going one way with money going the other way, but still, it's fun to see the big dogs barking at each other.

Another aspect to these proceedings that shouldn't be overlooked is that, on the software front, they boil down to iOS versus Android (again). When Apple calls Samsung uninventive in its user interface, it's talking more about Android's perceived imitation of the iPhone's interface than whatever TouchWiz tweaks Samsung has slapped on top. And hey, if you're going to sue Google indirectly, you can't leave a major player like Samsung outside the courtroom, it just wouldn't be fair.


Source: Engadget - Apple sues Samsung (http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/18/apple-sues-samsung-over-for-copying-the-iphone-and-ipad/)

Is Apple trying to get more money?
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: ben_fb on April 18, 2011, 06:29:02 pm
Why does apple need money, their shit is already way overpriced.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: pikachu on April 18, 2011, 07:27:18 pm
For all those ads :P
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Nico on April 18, 2011, 08:20:21 pm
Why does apple need money, their shit is already way overpriced.

I blame Steve Jobs... HEY HTML5 is going to be the new shit even though most of the interwebs use Adobe Flash /herp-a-derp....

Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: pikachu on April 18, 2011, 08:32:41 pm
Flash is garbage.  What's your point exactly?
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Nico on April 18, 2011, 08:45:19 pm
Flash is garbage.  What's your point exactly?

If Flash is garbage, why does most of the interwebs still use it? Huh!? Riddle me that Mr. R.Pianka Pikachu.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: pikachu on April 18, 2011, 08:49:32 pm
Argumentum ad populum.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Jusτị¢e on April 18, 2011, 08:52:29 pm
Flash isnt garbage.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: pikachu on April 18, 2011, 09:16:02 pm
...what would you say are the upsides of flash?
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Scope on April 18, 2011, 09:18:58 pm
I'm assuming there aren't many alternatives to it at the moment. Besides using an object param to embed a wmv, avi, etc video playback has relied heavily on flash. Course I could be wrong on alternatives, but currently I only see Silverlight as a viable flash replacement.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: track on April 18, 2011, 11:54:05 pm
Apple is going to lose.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: ɥǝnяʎ ıן on April 19, 2011, 07:23:52 am
i don't know, unless there is proof that samsung used this design first, apple has a better chance of winning
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: EKLIPz on April 19, 2011, 12:28:07 pm
I like the part when they mention that Apple is indirectly suing Google, since the user interface is 99% Android. Samsung has almost no influence on the OS. I'd love to see Apple try and sue Google. That'd be like a pitbull picking a fight with a lion.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: K i n g o f K i n g s on April 22, 2011, 09:24:23 pm
Flash is garbage.  What's your point exactly?

If Flash is garbage, why does most of the interwebs still use it? Huh!? Riddle me that Mr. R.Pianka Pikachu.
People still use all sorts of garbage, like internet explorer. Or iTunes for anything other than syncing.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Loud on April 22, 2011, 09:53:40 pm
Elitists.

I use Netscape and Windows 95. And RealPlayer. What's a flash support?
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Victim on April 23, 2011, 02:23:17 am
I own one of the Samsung Galaxy phones and I can definitely see Apple's reasoning behind the lawsuit...it really is strikingly similar to iOS, both hardware (black with the chrome strip) and software (TouchWiz interface on top of Android).  Samsung is probably the most professional KIRF company out there; I saw this coming a mile away.

The lawsuit gets even more interesting because Samsung is a major chip supplier to Apple (around $7.8 billion in chips reported by WSJ in February).  This might dampen the relationship a little.

And naturally, Samsung countersued.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Colby on April 23, 2011, 01:34:47 pm
(http://d3uwin5q170wpc.cloudfront.net/photo/107119_700b.jpg)
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on April 27, 2011, 11:19:23 am
Samsung is an abolutely massive company with a stockpile of very useful mobile patents of their own, and not just fucking stupid UI patents, but actual mobile communications patents which could really put the hurt on Apple.

Samsung should just sign a cross licensing deal with Microsoft (Since Microsoft offers patent indemnification to licensees). Just look at HTC, when Apple sued them, they turned around and signed a deal with Microsoft, to which MSFT stepped up and threatened Apple. I expect a settlement soon.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on October 08, 2011, 05:40:37 pm
Turns out I was right. Samsung signed a cross licensing deal with Microsoft and will pay royalties for every Android device purchased.

Where I was wrong (and even naive) was in thinking Microsoft had any kind of leverage against Apple or vice versa. Microsoft cross licensed its patents with Apple (which is why Windows Phone is immune to patent litigation), so the two don't really have sharp objects with which to poke each other.

Samsung's seemingly only hope in this area (Apple has a lot of design patents and will likely win in my view, and has already preliminarily been awarded injunctions) is to counter sue with some of their essential hardware patents. Samsung has shit like core 3G technologies patented, so it'll be interested to see if they can convince a court in a less rational jurisdiction to grant them an injunction. (Which would have terrible consequences for anyone not Samsung ..).

This entire thing will end in flames. Android relentlessly infringes on shitloads of mobile industry patents. Every other OS vendor pays a licensing fee to the owners of the technologies, why doesn't Google?

My prediction (and we can come back to this thread if you want) is that by this time next year, Android will no longer exist. Oracle has some nasty patent assertions. On copyright alone (in which a Jury is very susceptible to agreeing with Oracle) the damages are in the billions (times three for willful infringement, and add in any elapsed time from now to the sentencing), and royalties can be extravagant. All without a single patent. Once any of the 16 or 17 asserted patents are deemed valid and deemed to have been infringed, expect the damages to skyrocket.

Oracle is really going for blood, seeking a royalty per device ranging in the $15 range. Its either that, or an injunction against Android in the United States.

Looks very fucking ugly, yet comically hilarious.

Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Scope on October 08, 2011, 10:36:35 pm
My prediction (and we can come back to this thread if you want) is that by this time next year, Android will no longer exist.

This is the only part of your argument I disagree with. Android dominates the mobile market with more apps than any provider, and a higher percentage of free apps at that. They are also the leading OS in smartphones and a higher percentage of people carry android based phones than Apple and Microsoft combined. I agree that it doesn't make sense that Google doesn't pay licensing fees and should. But I feel Android will not get shut down, it will simply be fined to hell and high water.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on October 08, 2011, 10:59:01 pm
The problem is at least in the US, there is no law on the books which forces Oracle to license a patent (the only exception being FRAND patents which are mostly hardware patents, and thats a weak covenant).

So if Google infringes, and Oracle refuses to license then the following scenario rolls out: Google is fined for past damages (times three for willful infringement since there's evidence Google knew that they were infringing on Sun's IP), and there is an injunction on the sale of Android devices in the United States.

Such an injunction is lifted in various ways: 1) Google finds a way to remove the infringing elements on Android (which would mean removing Java from Android and throwing all their apps away) or 2) Oracle licenses Java to Google.

Now, the second part is interesting. Oracle has a responsibility to its shareholders, so I believe in the end they will end up licensing Android, but they're going to demand insane prices. So lets say they demand $5 a handset.

Samsung pays $5 a handset to Oracle and $10-15 a handset to Microsoft for Android
Samsung pays a flat $15 for Windows Phone.

Which one is Samsung going to begin investing more resources in? Who else is going to come down the road and sue Samsung (and win) for infringement? What if they have to conceivably pay another $5 or $10?  Android will crumble eventually, either by an injunction or by partner desertion.

Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Scope on October 08, 2011, 11:38:48 pm
I see what your saying, that would be a large blow to the mobile industry. I don't think Google is the type to sink their own ship, and might just come down to cost analysis. Would it be beneficial if Google bought Oracle, whether it being a hostile takeover or through regular channels. That still doesn't clean up the Samsung debacle though. So yea, I see where your coming from. I just don't see Android going down without a pretty intense fight.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on October 09, 2011, 03:20:03 am
Well the ball is not in Google's court. The fate of Android (should the Jury find Google to infringe) is in the hands of Oracle. They can choose not to license and force a permanent injunction (a temporary one will take effect immediately until any remedies are in place).

Google is going to want to pay Oracle a one time lump sum. That's their ideal situation. It'll be in the high billions. Oracle will want a per device royalty.

The thing that pisses Google off is that Google makes no direct money from Android. They give it away. They make money from advertising done via Android.

Microsoft on the other hand, makes almost a billion dollars a year off of Android through patent royalties they've shaken out of various OEMs. Oracle is on the same path.

So it seems everyone except Google will profit from Android, to the point where the cost of running Android forces them to start paying royalties, and charging money.

Also, I must note that Oracle will ask for a worldwide royalty payment even if they're only found to infringe in the US. They have all the bargaining chips.

OEMs are going to flock Android and go to "safer" OSes. It wouldn't be much work to do a transition to Windows Phone devices. Samsung, HTC, LG, Dell, etc are already Windows Phone OEMs so they have the optimized chipset drivers in place and distribution channels, they'd just need to ramp it up.

Android in my eyes, is pretty much doomed. It was doomed the day they decided to go with a Java clone (using their own custom Dalvin VM instead of licensing Sun's JVM, and then going and stealing Sun's code.), everybody knew it was only a matter of time.

Look at Apple winning an injunction against Samsung, arguably the #1 mobile manufacturer by volume in the world (surpassing the 17 MILLION Nokia devices sold a quarter). If a Judge is willing to halt sales of a megamanufacturer like Samsung, they will likely have no sympathy for Android.


Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Victim on October 09, 2011, 08:23:28 pm
Even more reason now for one of these manufacturers to buy webOS off of HP.  I know there were rumors circulating about various buyers interested (HTC, Amazon, etc.).  I would like to see this OS at least resurrected in some form...I quite enjoyed it when I used the Palm Pre.

Maybe Google should buy it, lol.  ;)
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on October 09, 2011, 10:52:25 pm
webOS needs competency behind them. They're closer to Linux than Android is (Android uses Linux kernel but a bunch of custom everything else.) webOS builds off of open source components (DirectFb, DBus, etc.) so its a lot easier to grok how to extend the system.

I'm really optimistic that Palm will find someone smart and they'll be able to make some kind of niche for themselves. Remember, market dominance isn't everything. Profit margins are important too.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on October 14, 2011, 02:50:32 pm
Apple just got an injunction against Samsung in Australia.

A US Judge ruled that Samsung infringes on Apple's patents in the United States. If the USPTO upholds the validity of said patents, the Apple will be granted an injunction against Samsung in the United States.

Microsoft just signed a licensing agreement with another Android OEM, and they will receive money for every Android handset they sell.

Android is beginning to crumble. Microsoft now makes more money off of Android than anyone else.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Crisis on October 14, 2011, 05:12:51 pm
sources?
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: warrior on October 14, 2011, 06:35:32 pm
US District Judge ruling against Samsung:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/10/13/idINIndia-59884420111013 (http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/10/13/idINIndia-59884420111013)

Australian Judge ruling against Samsung:
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/tablets/apple-wins-bid-to-block-rival-samsung-tablet-20111013-1lm43.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/tablets/apple-wins-bid-to-block-rival-samsung-tablet-20111013-1lm43.html)

Microsoft presser regarding licensing agreements with Android OEM (which manufactures the Blackberry Playbook and the Amazon Kindle Fire, a new Android Tablet):
http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2011/oct11/10-13QuantaPR.mspx (http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2011/oct11/10-13QuantaPR.mspx)

They now have almost every major Android OEM on board. The two biggest being Samsung and HTC. Microsoft is paid royalties for the global sales of almost every Android handset on the planet.
Title: Re: Apple sues Samsung
Post by: Scope on October 15, 2011, 04:29:28 am
This is gaining a lot more traction than I thought it would. Especially in these early stages.